Mike Hendrix (00:00)
Hey everyone, it's Mike Hendrix from smbGOLF. And today my guest is John McNair from JC Resorts. And this is the Tech Caddie Podcast.

John, welcome to the podcast. good to hear from you.

John McNair (00:28)
Mike, to be with you.

Mike Hendrix (00:30)
You're in sunny, California. And so I'm in rainy Columbus, Ohio. So I'm already jealous coming out of the gates here. But for people that aren't familiar with John McNair in golf, like I am, Why don't you, introduce yourself

John McNair (00:46)
Yeah, so I actually grew up in the Midwest, where you're sitting right now in that area and outside Chicago. My father was a golf pro at a golf course and general manager and he was there for 38 years. So I started working when I was 12 years old, picking the range, parking carts, washing dishes in the winter. All the labor laws of California would not allow today to do something like that. And then to get the business side of things, played for a while and got in the business side of things.

And fast forwarding this discussion, I've been at JC Resorts for 26 years now, running their golf department. We started with four properties and today we have 21, mainly all of our courses are in Southern California with a high concentration in San Diego County. Yeah, and I've also been involved with the PGA of America in our Southern California section. I've been president of their section. Actually had the honor of our district director, sitting on the national PGA board of directors. And so,

Yeah, it's been a fun run and it's been a great 26 years at JC Resorts.

Mike Hendrix (01:44)
That's great. And so you're humble. you just were entered into the Southern California golf hall of fame. So congratulations on that.

John McNair (01:54)
Thank you. Now, it's quite an honor just ⁓ very recently, a couple of weeks ago. So, yeah, very special. I mean...

Mike Hendrix (02:01)
I mean, John, we typically don't have people on that aren't Hall of Famers. So we had to wait for you to come in.

John McNair (02:06)
Right, yeah.

Well, the good news is I was playing for inductees and half of them weren't alive anymore. So I'll take that as a win.

Mike Hendrix (02:14)
Right. So I knew that you were from Chicago. I've visited with you. I think it was Twin Oaks. I think I've been to and seen you out there. I was actually going through my phone this morning and I have pictures from Twin Oaks from back then. But I don't actually know why you got from Chicago to Southern California. What happened there that moved you out of Chicago?

John McNair (02:40)
Yeah, so I worked as a kid and played through college. Then I went and worked half the year and played half the year. I played full time for three years. And then it was a course in Florida where I was playing out of that, you know, long story short, needed a head golf professional. I just went back into the operation side was a golf professional and of course outside Orlando and then ⁓ had the opportunity to be a general manager in Atlanta, a place called Cherokee Run. I was there for a couple of years and they promoted me to

running their golf division. was called environmental golf or ValleyCrest golf at that time. And so that's how I got out to California. And we took that from one course to six courses in a very short period of time, like in a couple years. And then had the opportunity to come to JC Resorts 26 years ago and here we are. So that's kind of how it all progressed, really playing and then just working hard in the business and the golf operation side.

Mike Hendrix (03:34)
And it seemed to me like your parents were probably pretty classic entrepreneurs, right? mean, they owned the business, but they also like worked the business, right? I mean, they were, they were all in on running that kind of classic, small American business.

John McNair (03:49)
It was, was truly a family business. mean, my dad was the general manager and head golf professional. My mom did the books and the marketing. My uncle actually for a long period of time was a superintendent there. And then my brother and I, like I said, we started working there when we were 12 years old, know, picking, you know, picking the range, parking carts, all that. And then I realized after a while, you know, I got about 16 that, Hey, that work outside in the maintenance crew, that's hot in the summer. My brother stayed in the maintenance crew. I think I was a smart one. I went to indoors into the golf shop and said, I'll work in the golf shop. so that summer.

Chicago summer heat so truly a fan of business.

Mike Hendrix (04:19)
Yeah.

Chicago is an amazing golf market. would, I would, I'm just guessing, but I would, I would guess you guys cross paths with the Jemseks occasionally in Chicago.

John McNair (04:31)
Yep, and family and well, know, Joe Jemsek, Katherine's grandfather, he's considered in many ways the godfather of public golf, not just in Chicago, well, for sure in Chicago, but really America. He was the one that kind of first started that. And that's the name we've always given him. You know, it's incredible family history there and great people. And my father knew all that.

Mike Hendrix (04:57)
is exactly how I think of the Jemseks ⁓ I'm, very involved with the Ohio golf course owners association. and I've just recently started to do some work with the Pennsylvania association. It does seem like every state kind of has those stories, right? You know, we have those families in Ohio too. We have, the Powell family, know, Renee Powell and the story of it.

and we have the Kitchens in Springfield, Ohio, and we have the Snodes up in Northeast Ohio. Like every state seems to have these families that have passed the course on from generation to generation. And I actually, that's kind of what draws me to the, that whole owner association vibe. I just think that those are awesome American stories.

John McNair (05:41)
No, you're right. mean, every state or region has, absolutely has that. Jemsek that's in Chicago. know, like in this Southern California, you've got like the Addis's family that have, they're like a staple, but a staple for generations of people in golf in Southern California where we sit today.

Mike Hendrix (05:59)
so John, you know, I've always thought of you as, mean, look, you were a white whale of mine when I was at GolfNow like I was like, God, if we could get McNair, that would be amazing, you know? And, but I think a lot of people hold you in high regard because of your business acumen. you know, you've really kind of developed this relationship of, Hey, I understand the P&L. I understand the importance of marketing. mean, you, you really do have a pretty good grasp on the full thing. And I know you

You talk about that at different seminars. Like you're not, you don't shy away from that. think that you embrace the idea of running the business of a golf course.

John McNair (06:34)
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like being successful on the business side of it. like playing back in the day, right? That's your competition, right? That's your, what'd you shoot today, right? Did you win or not win the golf tournament? And that's what I love about it. I love the challenge of the golf business and that. and yeah, I mean, for example, the GolfNow example. We talked many times, I never caved and went with GolfNow because I don't believe in giving up my tee sheet.

I never did, right? It's an easier way to do it. A lot of people do it, because I think it's an easy way to quote unquote market your golf course. I looked at it like I did the analysis. It cost you $73,000 per tee time. I can do better by getting a point of sale system that's not GolfNow as I'm doing that. And that's five years worth of dollars. it's over 100 grand at least for tee time today. anyway, that's, yeah.

I pride myself on that and that's what we focus on. And we're a big enough company because we're in the hotel business too. We've got the really strong HR, IT, accounting systems to back it up because we've got hotels as well. And by the same time, we're smaller from the golf side with 21 courses where we're intimately involved with every golf course and what we're going to do. we don't believe in a cookie cutter program like a lot of companies. just...

Each course is different. treat it differently and we just try to drive as much revenue and profit as possible. Yeah, that's our, that's kind of a little bit different.

Mike Hendrix (07:58)
And it seems like part of the strategy almost like a, an In-N-Out it's geography, right? That you you're not interested in setting up shop in New Jersey or something like that. You've got your geography. Frankly, you probably have every golfer possible in that database by now, but it seems like you have your geography. You know how golf works in that area and that's where you want to be.

John McNair (08:19)
Yeah, we're mainly in California. We've branched out. We've been working for company in New Mexico forever. We're about to go into Arizona, actually, with a new course. But that's where we're strongest because of our database. We have a massive database. We'll go through the numbers. I don't look at database as a number. I look at it, have you played one of our family golf courses in the last two years? That's really a customer.

Mike Hendrix (08:45)
Get

in.

John McNair (08:47)
over a million in Southern California, or just in golfers in that case. But are you active with us? And did you interact and do a transaction with us in the last two years? But our big thing that we really delineate us is we program called the JC Players Card Program. It's where it's an affinity program where have to buy in for at least five rounds of golf that you get part of the program. And then you get a discount rate, the balance of the year. And we have over 24,000 people in that program in Southern California alone.

So that kind of is a delineator. So if we go into a course in Southern California, we can drive business to it like to be honest, nobody else can. And so it allows us to be successful in a very short period of time at golf courses we get involved with, because of that database. is, I've said, there's no silver bullet in the golf business from a marketing standpoint. It takes a lot of work. You got to a of BBs at it to hit your target. There's no, there's no, but this is JC Players card, what we focused on for the last.

25 years has been as close to a silver bullet as you can get.

Mike Hendrix (09:48)
How many courses do you think you have to have to make a card like that work?

John McNair (09:54)
at a very minimum, at least five in a close, geographic region. Five can work where you're within at least, we go by not miles, but by the time it takes to drive in California, because it's not like back in Chicago, you can drive there 15 miles is 12 minutes. 15 miles could be an hour in our neck of the woods. But we wanna be within a 15 to 20 minute ideal.

drive to each of the courses so someone can have an opportunity to play multiple courses and they know whether it's course conditions they're going to get. They always know they're have what our course conditions are going to be, type of service, but they're going to be treated and felt more like a member than, you know, it's a public access golf course, but you're going to be treated like a member, so to speak. But more importantly, they're going to know exactly what they're getting in the course from a course conditions and a service level. And so, but I think you need at least five and I think they all have to be within, you know, let's say

20, 25 minutes at the most within each other to really have success, to really grow a nucleus of that. Now, in the beginning, we started just in San Diego County, and now we're all the way up into San Bernardino and Riverside, Orange County, all the way through Southern California. So we've been out to the desert. So yeah, that's. ⁓

Mike Hendrix (11:12)
So

let me ask you, I mean, this, this might be tough, but like, let's say for, I don't know, some reason you decide to move to, uh, Dayton, Ohio, and you didn't own five golf courses. You owned one. How does your brain work? What do you think about like, well, well, here's the first two things I would do if I was a single operator. And let's say even maybe in a non destination market.

John McNair (11:37)
Yeah. So now just take, yeah, Columbus, pick a town out, right? Whatever. I think when you get your course, if you can get at least two that you might own, one, even if you had just one, partnering with, I would try to treat my own card then and have the Columbus golf card or whatever you want to call it.

Mike Hendrix (11:53)
You

would you would try to network other guys together. Okay. Yeah.

John McNair (11:57)
And

when you do that and you, but someone's going to have to run it. There's the whole accounting of it. So have to get, you know, at least probably four other operators to agree. Ideally you have at least two to make that work. Um, I would be the ideal scenario, at least two that you owned and then maybe bring a couple, three others in. But here, here's why that program can be very beneficial to the golf course owner. It's really good during the good times because you're locking in or playing your family golf courses. But what we've learned over, over, um, the history of doing this is.

especially since being the JC players, we've been through three recessions with it, including the great recession, 9-11, pandemic, all the things that life can throw at you. It's really good during the, it's excellent during the bad times. Because what happens is they're already locked in your course for at least a year. So let's say it's a bad economic year, a bad golf economic year, golf, its own micro economy there. It allows them to stay involved and part of your family of golf courses during that time. And so by the time,

the golf recession, the recession kind of starts coming out of it. You you're already building back up and you're in good shape, but it locks them into your family golf courses, lets them know who you are. And then when you can market to them directly, and if you ever have to do promotions outside of your typical discounting model, you can do it as a value to those members where you're not discounting to the complete general, you know, general golf population of that market. You are targeting to your members.

where it doesn't feel unlike you're discounting because you're giving that member a benefit of a lesser rounded, let's say Tuesdays after two o'clock is your time. You're marking a member and say, thank you for being a member. This is a special time for you only. We fill it with those, which adds value, loyalty at the same time. Let's say if you're discounting, you an example after two o'clock on a Tuesday, you're to discount typically, let's say it's 80 bucks for your first twilight. You're to go to 60. I'm just going to example out. You're doing that, just that market.

or to that member. If you're giving them a value of $20 savings, but you're still keeping your rate to the public and to anybody else, non-members at that $80. So you continue to have that perceived value, right? It's like, bought this sweater for $80, right? Or it costs $80. I got it on sale for $60 and I got another one in red. Then I get one in white and it's $60 each time. Now, all of a sudden I go to $80 and I want it in Navy. Wait a second.

that perceived value of that shirt or that sweater is $60, not $80. And so it allows us to keep that $80 value in the marketplace.

Mike Hendrix (14:29)
Got it. We have one individual in Ohio that's doing that. That's a member of the association, Jonathan Palmer. And it's interesting to your point. They have a couple of golf courses, right? They don't have one. And then they've invited a few other people in his main place is called Mallard Creek. But, but yeah, you know, very, very similar approach. you know, you, you've been in the, in the space, you've seen a lot of change in golf. You certainly have seen change.

across technology. You've actually been through a couple of peaks and valleys related to demand. I personally, we're in the middle of ranking every booking engine that's available in golf. So there's over 60 different booking engines available in golf. And I've been doing this for a few years, John. I have this business where we track the

the data set of golf courses, every, I know at every golf course, what tech they use, what's their tee sheet, what's their point of sale, what's their member management. And then as you can imagine, there are, there are people in the world that are interested in that information. we sell it as a subscription, right? Anyway, that has exposed me to just how many choices are out there. And I thought it would be interesting to hear from you. Like, how can you make sense of 60 different companies offering tee time booking engine in golf?

And I thought maybe you could share for us a little bit of like, what's the tech that you guys use to run JC resorts.

John McNair (15:52)
Yeah, so we've used, it's great to have that tool. And what I've learned with Point of Sale Systems is, you know, we've been with Club Prophets for 15 plus years, at least, at least 15 at this point. What I've realized is nobody's perfect. There isn't one out there. They all have their blessings, their curses. And I've learned to over the years, well, we're close to having that, or we're going to have that next month. seeings believen' is the only way I would do anything with Point of Sale Systems, right?

But Clubhouse has been great. When the Robshaw's owned it, it was incredible. In fact, they're the one software company that, especially when they owned it, exceeded every expectation. were incredible. A little bit different today. It's still very good. Don't get me wrong. it's not quite as quick to have change or to have adjustments made.

Mike Hendrix (16:37)
I will say, it does seem like there's some challenges there right now that, they lost the Robert Trent Jones trail. They lost Wilson Golf up in that kind of that Minnesota, Wisconsin area. I don't know. It seems like it's challenging there today.

John McNair (16:53)
I think that's the case because the Robshaw's were so good in getting back to you and they would listen to your concerns and they would make a very quick change. And if they weren't able to make change, they would be transparent and say, yeah, it's not going to happen. Or, John, it's probably three years down the road. Then you just got it, right? But it was transparent. But really they worked really well with us and we weren't to be transparent. We were an easy customer with our JC players to make all that work for our membership. We were.

very unique. I used to kid them and say, you should be paying us because we're making you better.

Mike Hendrix (17:27)
The Jemsek's also left. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John McNair (17:30)
So that's, they're still good for us right now, for sure. But, you know, it's, it's still boggling. The ideal scenario for me for a point of sale system would not only be able to do your point of sale, do your tee times, do all the things, do all the e-commerce, do bookings, go down that road. But also ideally would be if they could have some type of accounting software so that you're tied in, so it could also, it could become your P &L to really save on accounting costs. If somebody could ever figure that out.

That would be the best system in the, especially for, well, for a group like us, but I think even for every single operator, because you could do everything out of one spot and that could be your end all be all. And you wouldn't have to have multiple systems. Plus you could also have a dashboard that might be more accurate as to where your expenses are, where your revenues are. And not only for good months where you might want to spend a little bit more, but months where you're maybe not doing as well.

when you need to cut and carve a little bit here and there. So it'd be a great system if that could have really figured out.

Mike Hendrix (18:27)
a secret for you. think they call that Jonas.

John McNair (18:30)
Jonas is great.

Mike Hendrix (18:32)
⁓ you know, there's a, there's an individual up in Canada also building something called Club Unity. And he has decided to take on the accounting challenge. what's interesting about accounting. mean, you're so smart. You're so perfect. And what you just said right there, once the operator does adopt that accounting level, and you can think of like IBS back in the day and that kind of, boy, are locked in as a vendor, right? It's really hard to then unseat.

the accounting platform that also happens to be the tee sheet and the point of sale. If you can crack that nut, it's you've got a customer for a long, long time.

John McNair (19:10)
Yeah. And I know because we had IBS before and I eventually called it Irritable Bowel Syndrum in ⁓ them. yes, was frustrating. anyway, so that's where we're at today. I think the great groups will adjust also with technology. What we have today is going to be the next gen. It's going to be AI is going to be incorporated. It's going to be the tee sheet bookings. How are you going to do that?

And then different operators for us there again, we live and die by our JC players card at most all of our courses. So it's got to be able to have that centralized database, be able to make it seamless. Shifting to an app for us is a big part of that too. So every member can just take their phone, you know, and use that app and have their bookings right there.

Mike Hendrix (19:50)
guys are a Gallus customer, think, right? You're a Gallus customer.

John McNair (19:54)
Wow, you're you must of done your homework it's exactly.

Mike Hendrix (19:56)
I don't do my homework. All I gotta do is check my HubSpot, John. I've had this data for three years now.

John McNair (20:01)
Okay,

all right. yeah, that's exactly right. So we've gone to that and that's a game change for us for renewals, because we're trying to get more, I hate to use our subscription model, but it's kind of be like that. We're all of you're in and we're just going to keep you in where we can auto renew your membership over and over to make it easy for the customer, but also easier for us accounting signups. And then we can market to those individuals as well.

Mike Hendrix (20:27)
So yeah, yeah. ⁓ right, right. so when you guys look at like the last three years, let's say, what is the difference maker now? Because I, mean, look, I think nobody wants to take for granted how great it's been for say at least five years, but you do start to wonder, like, we are going to kind of get used to this level of demand. And I'm actually starting to think more in the future about, then how do you take another step?

forward and I'm curious what you guys are thinking about related to that. What, you know, what, what do you think you do next that elevates the brand and ultimately the P&L even more.

John McNair (21:04)
Yeah, well, I'm going to start with something outside technology for just one moment. What we've really done, particularly the last three to four years, and all of our golf courses we are putting as much money back in, is reasonable to the property to make the asset great, whether it's bunker renovation, leveling tee boxes, clubhouse improvements, and you name it A to Z, because I've been around long enough now, there will be another recession for sure.

At some point, there's gonna be a little wave in this. We haven't seen it, know, knock on wood, but in fact, ours has continued to grow. Not only rate at a crazy rate, it's six, 7 % each year, plus growing rounds. But I've been around long enough to know that someday that's gonna wean a little bit, more than likely. But we're getting ready that from a physical plant standpoint, getting the operations and godforsaken's there. But I think the next wave, what we're seeing is...

from a technology base is, again, I mentioned AI. I don't think that's been fully vetted what that's really going to look like yet. mean, nobody has a crystal ball, but there's some unique things that could be happening. We've all heard about it different seminars. But for us, what we've really had some success with in the last year and a half, year or so, has been prepaid tee times in particular. One of our courses, I'll give a specific example for you, Encitas Ranch golf course. One of our courses, we built it 26 years ago.

Huge successful course does 80,000 rounds at a rate of $80. So it does very, well. Average $80. So weekends it's, know, buck 20 and, and, and from there, but, um, we went to prepaid for, have residents there and then we have our JC players card, but prior to that for a 60, uh, to 9 day window before we, uh, do a prepaid tee time only one an hour because the demands there for it, but we're not requiring.

If you want that, have to pay rack rate plus $25. But here's the biggest part for us is you have to pay a foursome. And the reason I like that so much is it allows us to have that guaranteed foursome because you know, is somebody comes in, hey, my buddy, hung over, couldn't go here today. we not charge him? And a lot of times, first at the counter, caved, right? It's not an easy conversation. Husband and wife books, they book it for four. They never intentionally book it for four. It's really gonna be two.

and they show it to and so the other couple couldn't make it. They were never gonna be that. So, and then they caved. And so the prepaid, whether it's in advance or just we're looking well, let me finish on this part. So what's happened is our average public rate of that course first year we did it, went up $28 a round. $28 a round. But more importantly, our foursome value for that per round, average round, went up by over $200, about $210 per foursome, per tee time.

per T-sec, because before it might have been a three-sec. It doesn't show, right? So we're making 200 more dollars per tee time based on doing that.

Mike Hendrix (24:04)
Yeah,

you're like crushing the RevPATT really is what you're doing.

John McNair (24:09)
Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly right. Yeah, so That's exactly it.

Mike Hendrix (24:14)
You mentioned in there one an hour. Why only one?

John McNair (24:18)
I do

more than that. resident, the red, it's a, this is, it's a city, not exactly a city on course, but see involved course we'll say, do they have, they have say if I do that, I'll, I'll have pitchforks at, ⁓ at the golf course. Cause they can't get the tee times

Mike Hendrix (24:23)
Okay.

Got it. Got it.

It, it proves to you what you can do and then you'd maybe you go apply it to your other 20 golf courses or what have you. Right. At least that's an interesting experiment. You kind of got to run there.

John McNair (24:47)
And that's exactly right. So I know that's where I can, we can do the highest, not only, not only the rack rates. So typically the resident might pay, let's say on a Saturday, might pay $85 and we're going to be charging 125 plus another 25. So you're getting 150 plus then again, you're getting your, you know, you're getting your, um, guaranteed foursome. Right. So that's been really good. worked, um, with a group called Golf District to do that. And they've been excellent.

Mike Hendrix (25:10)
I was going to ask you, did Club Prophet

John McNair (25:13)
No,

no, that's not Club Prophet. Yeah, it's called Golf District. They've been a great partner. We've been involved with them. We've launched it four other golf courses. There again, we can't do the rack at all or rack plus 25. Some are just at rack. Depending on the course, each one's different. There again, we don't cookie cutter. It's also different when it's involved with the city or not. Most of our courses are not cities. yeah, it's where we can drive revenue on that for that owner. We have to protect our JC players members because they have

you the rights, but for earlier bookings, if you want that, you got to be, you got to pay for the foursome. If you want, basically, if you want the best times and you have to do it you got family in town or you got a special day, it's your birthday and you want to play and you want to guarantee you get in that spot, you can do it. We're just going to guarantee your foursome. that way, that way, it's fair to the golf course too, if you're looking at it, or the I look at it anyway is you were committing to a foursome when you booked that time. And now we're just,

require you to commit to that with your wallet, not just what you said you were going to do, right? Yeah, for sure. So that's where it's that's where prepaid is really good. That's where the Golf District software is incredible to help us do that. I think the

Mike Hendrix (26:22)
I for what it's worth. know Golf District. We're in the middle of a booking engine, like ranking that we're going to print. We're going to, I mean, there are some features in that booking engine. I just have not seen elsewhere. You, if you want to book seven players, you know, with back then back to back tee times, you can do it with that booking engine. you, think a lot of people know when they first came to market, everybody thought it was about like reselling your tee time. And so obviously that tech exists, but

when you lean into that engine a little bit more, you find a lot of bells and whistles. mean, look, there's a weather guarantee in that thing that is very, I mean, very interesting to me, because if you ever get somebody to explain it to you, you realize the golfer, there's a scenario where the golfer gets to play golf, the owner gets paid for the tee time and the golfer gets his money back for the golf because it rained a little bit. That's kind of amazing to me that that exists.

John McNair (27:19)
It is that's what I liked about what they've able to do. They've just gotten better every, I feel like every couple of months there's something new coming out they've done to make it better for the operator, also the customer to a degree. And so we got it originally that way too about the resale side of things. And that's why we really like it there from the guarantee standpoint, because they're not going to the kid at the counter or the golf professional at the counter. They have to go into the Golf District to resell that time.

That's how we got in now, which was an amazing feature, right? That's why I loved it. And that's how we could do the foursome guaranteed. And then it goes, they go to another level and then it's the prepaid. We can do the whole prepaid and do that. We are guaranteeing that in advance, getting paid in advance. was speaking of our book in 60 days out, we got our money in the bank, right? At RACK plus, right? For the foursome. And so that's really where I think Golf District's value is even getting better now is the fact that you're doing, it's the prepaid.

prepaid side of things. I think, you guys talk about the trends, I'll paraphrase it, but what's the next thing? And I think that's really where it's at. Systems like that, that can do the prepay to guarantee the revenue for the golf course, which is best for the golf course, but at the same time, it's getting commitment out of the golfer. We had one course of ours that was having, it's not far from Los Angeles.

And they were having people just book tee times where where a foursome might you're all trying to get your best tee time, massive cancellations. Well, we went to something similar to there. We're going to do the prepay and I can tell you our bookings and cancellations dropped by 75%. People just, yeah, tires, right. And that's the golfer that's going to, you know, before this book it. And I get busy after I do that, I forget, ⁓ God, I forgot to, I forgot to cancel my tee time. Then we're eating that tee time. We're eating a portion of it was just a booking fee.

I'd much rather have the golfer. And so that's why it's been critical for us there again, using Golf District to do that, to get that prepaid, to allow the tire kickers on the times where four guys are just, or gals are just trying to get their best time and they forget the golf course. It's not for the golf course and they're being kind of disingenuous to the golf course by doing it, but there again, the Golf District softwares allowed us to combat that and not.

Mike Hendrix (29:33)
So you, you know, we noticed that you guys use Gallus. We know that you use Club Prophet. You mentioned Golf District. We also saw that you guys recently brought on Noteefy. So you do have a lot of tech that is like the golfer facing tech. and I I'm curious as to how you manage all that, how you make sure everything plays well together and ultimately is giving a great experience to the golfer.

John McNair (29:57)
Yeah, think it's twofold. Looking from the operator perspective first is, know, what's nice thing there, Golf District is getting more and more that technology in one, so we can use that. But we do use others and then we're trying to do is white label as much as possible on whether it's Noteefy or Golf District, it's white labeled to our website so it doesn't look that way until the customer clicks deep in there, you know, powered by Golf District, for example. So, you know, the...

That's where it's at. That's why if we could ever have one system that could do it all, it'd be great. So, the number one umbrella, right? So, but that's not here today. So, we do our best to do that and white label it. So, it looks as seamless as possible, the customer number one, and then also for us on the backend.

Mike Hendrix (30:39)
So John, one of the services that we, my little company, my smbGOLF provides to golf courses is we go and update what's called schema scripts on the backend of every website page to help the AI engines understand the business better. There's a certain way you write some schema code.

And that's the code that these AI engines seem to prefer to read. And I'm just curious, because you mentioned AI earlier, how do you, whether it's you, John McNair or JC Resorts, how are you guys thinking about AI and what you'll do with that, in the coming months or coming years?

John McNair (31:17)
Yeah, think it's going to be ever, it's going to, the technology will be ever changing, right? So you got to know where we are today, but where is it going to be? A lot of it's a crystal ball for all of us, right? It's new to us. I think the thing where it's at right now is the booking engines. That's where we've really got to pay close attention to it because that can have, you know, it's not, ⁓ theoretically you can definitely see them if it's ringing the cat first or not. So, ⁓ that's what we're looking at from a booking engine who can help you, who can, drive as much revenue to your website.

your tee sheet as possible opposed to others. so that's where I see it's at. We're already there with phones. Phones is already in the mix, right? And it'll be interesting what's happening next and how the booking process is going to be looking a year to two years from now. I think it's going look a lot different than it is today due to AI.

Mike Hendrix (31:53)
For sure. Yeah.

Yeah, I think so too. Since you are Club Prophet, are you a Priswing customer? Do you guys do any dynamic pricing?

John McNair (32:14)
We do dynamic pricing through Club Prophet, but funny you mentioned we've just been talking about doing, they're getting another vendor in there, Priswing in there in that mix to elevate it up. But right now we do it with Club Prophet. It's been pretty good, but we think we might have to go to another level with it to maximize every dollar out of it. And for the next AI.

Mike Hendrix (32:31)
So you're saying

you're using some Club Prophet, kind of organic dynamic pricing. Is that what you're saying? Yes. Gotcha. Okay. Gotcha. well, so here's one for you that's related to AI, but it's different. Where are you on autonomous mowing? And I'll give you some background. We Inverness. So, you know, Ohio, right? Inverness just got the men's us open. it's a couple of decades from now, but they, they were awarded the men's us open for 2045.

Next year they host the U S Women's Open at Inverness. And I just hosted a big conference in Ohio and their superintendent was on stage talking about autonomous mowers. And I was, I was shocked at how much Inverness is using autonomous mowers today. And so now it's like one of these questions I've started to ask a lot of multi-course owners. Hey, like, are you, are you doing this too? Like maybe this is a bigger thing than I once thought.

But I am curious to hear from you where you guys are with Autonomous Mowing.

John McNair (33:31)
I'm very bullish on it. We already have it at four of our golf courses. There's four more coming on board in the next four months that are getting them. And there again, it's not, you have to have a lot of them to really replace the humans on there. But we like is you can get a play ahead of play earlier in the morning, which allows in your maintenance crew to get farther ahead before they have to stop for golfers, you know, to start from efficiency and labor efficiency standpoint, the starting and stopping on the agronomic crew, the maintenance crew.

is the killer, right? That's how your productivity goes down drastically. So we're trying to do it in the first few holes at least to get ahead. So instead of starting on number one for mowing fairways, they're starting on four or five. And that's where it roughs the same way. Then get ahead of play. So you have to do the start and stop all afternoon like most golf clubs do, because eventually they catch play. And so that's what we're doing. Or we can maybe start a little bit earlier because it, get one more tee time, all those little things like that. Whether it's on the rev, try to more revenue off of it or to

from a labor efficiency standpoint.

Mike Hendrix (34:30)
You know, it was, and this doesn't really apply to Southern California very much, but I was surprised to hear how much they use them in the rain. They're not heavy. And so they're not going to create tire ruts in the rough or anything like that, but they absolutely are built to work in the rain. And so when you start to hear a very accomplished superintendent talk about how he just sees the maintenance of his course differently than he did three years ago,

we had another superintendent that has a course that's in a housing development. And he said he thinks maybe the biggest benefit that they have seen is no one calls to complain about the noise anymore of mowing the grass. And so there's just these things that you wouldn't think of right out of the box. And you start to say, my goodness, that is going to like, that's how you're going to mow a golf course in three or four years. That's it. They're all going to be autonomous.

John McNair (35:19)
I think they will. don't know about all, but definitely no question on rough fairways and that. And I think we've had the same experience with some of our courses have got homes up against them much better. We're actually strategically doing that and holes of even like the worst people that voice their opinion about the noise. We're definitely using those holes. But the cut's really good. The key I was worried about is superintendents a lot of times

They're not, they're not the resistance to change and they really embraced it, which has been good. Cause usually when you have a change like that, it's they're tougher. They'll ask to really want to do that. And so it's been, it's been great. They're all bullish on it. Cause the cuts really good. It's very, very good. So, um, we're, bullish on it. Continue to do it. We believe in every area right now, except greens. I, I would just still, our greens, you live and die by your greens. Right? I mean, it's good. You don't have good greens. You have nothing. And so you have to have great greens. And so.

Who knows, someday maybe we're doing our greens that way, but I still don't think that's the case yet, because if that gets screwed up, it's a big, big problem.

Mike Hendrix (36:26)
Yeah. But if you think about the rate of advancement in these things, At least I'm in this bucket of saying, then within three years, they'll have perfect greens coming out of these. That's what I think. I think that they will figure all of that out.

John McNair (36:40)
They could. Right now, it's not. I'm going what we are today. Right today, I have not. I've tested. I've seen it. I do not feel comfortable doing it on our greens. Everything else, I'm 100 % what we were doing it. We've been doing it for a year and a half or more now. So it's unquoted. So we're bullish. We're going, like I said, four more. We'll have 10 by the end of this year on that system. it's, and by end of 27, every one of our golf courses will have an autonomous mower. There's no question.

Maybe not the whole fleet, but enough to get through the first few holes at least. And then the other one we're really researching is the autonomous pickers. There are more mowers came out first. So we're in like the second generation of the mowers now. We didn't want to be first gen on that because we worried about that, but second gen we're there. Close to getting third, probably fourth gen will be where greens get perfect where you're going. But range picking, it's getting there now. We've had huge projects in the last six months on that.

But that's more still, I would consider it still almost first gen bucking in the second gen. And we're ready to start making a move on those as well. Our ranges do massive volumes. So we need more of the ones that can either pull or push a three plus gang unit. The ones that are more the Roomba kind that can pick up 200 balls and drop it. I need eight of them out there to do that, right? Some of our ranges that are busy, right? We have some ranges that do almost $2 million in revenue alone.

We've got to have, we believe in the bigger gang units. They're again, from efficiency, cost savings, from a cost standpoint, to the number of balls it picks up per hour, how many you need. That's where we're on that. But that's our next gen. the nice thing is the other advantage with that is there'll be less downtime. So you can pick it all night, can mow it first thing in the morning. There's no clean pick or there's even one company currently that has it where you can do the range ball picking.

and can follow the hook to a mower attachment behind it. Yeah. it. And so, and so, yeah, so we're, we're, we're all in, especially in Southern California, right? We're open 365 days a year. Both of them are lighter, which you mentioned we had, course, from a rain standpoint, we'll equip the autonomous mowers out opposed to our other mowers. Yeah. We had some serious rain storms like the next day, and we could have never put our five gang rough mowers out there or fairway mowers because it just wouldn't have worked. So you're spot on with that too.

Mike Hendrix (38:37)
I saw it.

Yeah. Talk a little bit about the PGA of America. know, a couple small little, well, I shouldn't say small couple leadership changes, but I'm more interested in what, what do think the future looks like for the PGA of America?

John McNair (39:16)
I still think it's great, right? You've got 30,000 men and women that love the game of golf, love to teach, promote the game of golf, are the face of so many of our operations, right, throughout the country. In addition, get people in the game. The first junior golf lesson, first junior clinic ran by a PGA golf professional. So I think it's still very, very strong. Things are good. The PGA's championship is still excellent.

some issues last time, think all in all, still the greatest team championship in golf. Nothing even compares to it. It's just such an incredible event. I've had the privilege of going to three of them in my life and they are, I mean, there's nothing like it to see the excitement in golf. ⁓

Mike Hendrix (39:57)
sure.

And the TV is absolutely gripping, you know, from a from a fan perspective, I don't know how there's anything wrong with the Ryder Cup. So I'm very bullish on all of those those championships, frankly.

John McNair (40:11)
Yeah, and think there's still so many great things, right? PGA Hope, which has been around for about a decade now, but really been a focus for the last five years. know, what's, you know, as it says, that system or that program is one of the true programs in golf. It doesn't just change their golf game, changes their lives. mean, I've so many testimonials on that and talked to veterans that it really just, it saved their life. They had all sorts of bad thoughts going and it just changed. gave them a purpose.

gave them a reason to get out of bed, get out of the house and go do something outside and something they enjoy. And so there's things like that. They've been really, really amazing. So PGA still does just so many great things. And they're the ones who get people in the game and keep them in the game through golf lessons. I've read the stats over the years and I'm sure you've seen it too. It's about like 22, a golfer that's taking lessons spends 22 % more in golf than they would any other time. And so that's from an operator standpoint, we want that, right? We need more of that.

We need it not only to keep them in the funnel of golf courses or coming to play golf, but also from the start of the funnel to get them into the game of golf. So PGA professionals, what they're doing is still a big part of that. Golf's hard, right? Golf's not an easy sport. You need somebody in the early years to take you under your wing to teach you how to do it, teach you etiquette, teach you all the right things about it, but also teach you how to get the ball airborne. And so that's why think PGA professionals still just do a great job of that.

Mike Hendrix (41:36)
I am curious, ⁓ you know, one, because I tried to sell things to you. and I always try to circle back with people and say, in your mind, what's the best way for someone to approach somebody that sits in a seat like you sit in, like you're really a golf executive. You're very busy, lots and lots of locations. What's the best way for someone to approach you? Yeah.

John McNair (41:58)
That's nice to say. And for the viewers out there, just let you know, I never bought from Mike. You want to be on your podcast. Anyway, I'll get inside. think it's it's two things what we've learned in not only technology, which is the space number one, it how's it going to make my business better from a financial standpoint and or the customer, right? What is it like the autonomous mowers, right? I the beginning, I didn't think the efficiency was there. They weren't first gen. didn't we wait, we waited till second gen.

Mike Hendrix (42:02)
That's right.

John McNair (42:25)
we're going to probably get the end of first gen, the second gen of the autonomous pickers, which we're starting down. We just bought our first one. But to answer your question, something that's going to make our business more efficient, more profitable. And also, we look at technology, not only is your company poised not to just do something good for us today, but if there's going to be a change in the system through technology, are you ready to be ahead of whatever the next is?

AI is it right now, is the next it. But there's going to be some form or fashion of AI or whatever the next AI is. Are you on the cutting edge of that? So if we buy today, you might have been first in, but you don't change your technology. That's not something we want either. We want the company that's going to be changing with the times. So the time is going to change rapidly with AI. that's kind it that can do a return on investment. And also, think for us, we talked jokingly about

not ever starting with GolfNow is something that's gonna allow us still to be able to control our own destiny. We want to be able to do that, right? So we believe it would have been easy to go with GolfNow and just put the system in and don't have to worry about my quote unquote marketing, right? We work hard. We work hard on our database and we work hard to get every golfer's name and email address. We worked hard to get 24,000 people in Southern California. Our program, it's a lot of work. It's not easy. Unfortunately, that means I don't play much golf anymore.

but it's the best for the business. And so to be able to control our own destiny, not so much for the good times like we're all having now, but we like to be poised and we're always thinking, what are we prepared to be when the next little ripple comes into effect or comes into the economy? And how are we ready for that? And how can we make sure that we maintain market share and rate during those periods of time?

Mike Hendrix (44:14)
what's like one or maybe two things you see lots and lots of operators do like in the thousands that you disagree with that you would not do that. And you, and you have a reason that you believe counter to maybe so many in the herd doing it.

John McNair (44:31)
Yeah, well, I think the easiest one I've been preaching this is well, you you've me say for about 15 plus years is giving up your tee sheet to to like GolfNow letting becoming a commodity on their website, because if it is when of course, for example, if someone's got a golf put yourself in the shoes of a golfer for a minute, you go online and you live in a certain area of the state of San Diego County, you click on this area, this part you want to be

Golf, you're clicking on, it shows five courses. It's not a value, it's about the price. And what they're really doing is GolfNow is they're looking at what's the best, how can they sell their tee times first, right? And then what's best for that. So everybody's just looking to grab a little chunk and they're looking at price rather than what the experience is. And it's just a, I call it commodity. You're becoming a commodity of a round of golf. You're not going to a golf course or special experience or.

how their greens, all those other kinds of, know, how's their course conditions, service, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that's where, I just can't believe that people give up that number one ability to sell in there. And also then, but more important than that over time, that's the short term. The long term where I really disagree, now you're training your customer that might've came to your course to go to their website, not your site. So what happens is during good times, you might not get away there. During bad times, you're toast because one of those five courses during a bad time,

are going to discount. And what's going happen is that customer is going to go, hmm, they must be all in the same par, so to speak, or value of golf. This one's $15 cheaper. I'm going to go here today. And so the course that needs the business the most is dropping their price and not looking at from rate integrity standpoint, just trying to get a dollar in today. They're going there. And now that person, if they're a good operator, they got a chance to grab that person's data. But you're training the customer to go not to your website, which you lose full control. And that's what I by the control. You lose control.

of the customer, where their habits, where they're going to go. And most importantly, you just became a commodity. Oh, and by the way, if you would have sold that tee time to trade time, I don't believe in trade times either. You're not getting a free point of sale system. not getting a free on their website. are getting, you are absolutely positively losing money on that. And there again, it's over a hundred thousand, eventually a rate over a hundred thousand dollars per year, per tee time. A point of sale is a lot cheaper than that.

And I can you, website's cheaper than that. there again, but then all that being said, just on a bad business, just in that way and the money, you really trained your customer. You could lose customers every single day going to GolfNow and or someone else's courses if they go there and like that other course.

Mike Hendrix (47:07)
Yeah. I have a couple of thoughts on that one. I used to work with a guy at GolfNow named Brian O'Hare and he had a great line. He said, you think talking about us as GolfNow, he said, we just introduced golfers to golf courses. And it was an easy way to kind of say like, that's all we're here to do. Right. But so many, mean, 80 % of the golf courses actually didn't do a lot with the introduction.

They didn't capture the golfer information when they were in the golf shop. didn't, you know, they didn't deploy a strategy to then move that golfer from the GolfNow platform over to their business. And so, you know, they had the opportunity to do what they could have. just didn't nowadays, especially in that Southwest part of America where GolfNow has been, you know, historically very, very strong.

we're seeing more and more operators deploy real transition strategies. I think of this guy, Martin Ort at desert Canyon in Arizona. He knew a year before he left GolfNow that he was leaving and he had a real plan for three months out. We're doing this with the golfer, you know, four months out, we're doing this with the golf. He had a transition plan in place that got him to where when the day he flipped the switch off, he really didn't feel it.

because he had, he had really deployed a strategy and I, I'm interested to see if there aren't more courses now that say, yeah, we're going to be smart about this. And because to me, John, the golf economy does not support that business plan anymore. Now the owner is the one with the power in the relationship because the owner enjoys golfer demand. And so the owner really can dictate terms to any aggregator as far as I'm concerned right now.

⁓ but of course some people you kind of get in a, know, well, I've been doing it this way for 10 years, so I'm going to keep doing it this way for 10 years kind of thing. But, but there clearly is an opportunity right now for the owner to really maximize the leverage that they have.

John McNair (49:07)
Yeah, absolutely. think that's a very smart operator that thought through a transition plan. And that's where the other thing GolfNow that they have their new, I don't know the name of it, but their premier courses, we have to pay another tee time to be in their marketing to top of mind, right? And so that's the other that's the other thing with it too, is now you're letting that vendor GolfNow, dictate your business model. And if you want to be competitive in your market now, you have to give them another tee time. Yeah, so that's, that's really the danger part of it. And but I

The operator of that golf course, or she was very wise to plan through that, put a plan together. But what he was really, I think you said this, he's capturing his customer back. He's getting their information back rather than giving it out. And that's really the difference, right? He did what he, he shouldn't have went down that road to begin with, but since he did, he actually got that customer back, which was very wise. So we can go run his golf course and not be depending on somebody else.

Because all these customers that are hooked now, they're hooked on the crack of GolfNow. Unless you're innovative like that, or you're willing to work hard, you get stuck. A lot of people aren't willing to work that hard or aren't willing to innovate like that to get that customer back. But that's the key to success for that if you're going to transition out.

Mike Hendrix (50:20)
Right. Well, listen, I really have enjoyed you coming on. You know, to me, there's there's just a handful of guys in the country like you that have really kind of demonstrated their ability to build a real business. You know what you know, you believe what you believe. And I think people are attracted to that. You know what I mean? And so I do. Look, you've given value to our viewer just by being on. So I appreciate you coming on the podcast.

John McNair (50:48)
Mike, thanks a lot. Thanks for what you do for golf, the technology space. know you are one of those people always looking at what is the next thing and what's coming. So appreciate that. Always love talking and learning from you. So much appreciate, Mike.

Mike Hendrix (51:00)
Okay, John, thanks a lot. That's John McNair, everybody. JC Resorts. And this was a Tech Caddie podcast.

‍